without en college graduates to fill them. that's why at vry university we're teaming up with companies like cisco to help make sure everyone's is ready with the know how we need for a new tomorrow. [ male announcer ] make sure america's ready. make sure you're ready. at devry.edu. ♪ ♪ health throw new york. i'm chris hayes. hello from new york. i'm chris hayes. luke burbank of the podcast too beautiful to live. heidi moore of the guardian. this week we got to see the state of the union from president barack obama touching on a whole range of domestic

issues as well as turning to some of the foreign policy that -- items on his agenda. i thought the way that he dealt with the difference between his domestic policy call for gun violence and his -- his call on immigration was really, really notable. particularly because those are the two things in the administration now. this was the rallying moment of the state of the union was this very dramatic crescendo around gun violence when he talked about the victims of some of the mass shootings. >> senators of both parties are working together on tough new laws to prevent anyone from buying guns for resale to criminals. each of these proposals deserve as vote in congress. one of those we lost was a young girl named nadia pendleton. he was 15 years old.

she loved figure newtons and lip gloss. she was a majorette. she was so good to her friends that they all thought they were her best friend. just three weeks ago she was here in washington with her classmates perfect forming for her country at my inauguration. and a week later, she was shot and killed in a chicago park after school. just a mile away from my house. her parents are in this chamber tonight. along with more than two dozen americans whose lives have been torn apart by gun violence. they deserve a vote. gabby giffords deserves a vote. the families of newtown deserve a vote. the families of aurora deserve a vote.

the families of tucson and blacksburg and the countless other communities ripped open by gun violence, they deserve a simple vote. >> i thought that was a very powerful moment in the speech. jennifer, i'm curious your reaction to it. because it seems to me that there's two things going there. one is -- the -- details of newtown were so horrific i think helped to educate americans a bit how many people died from gun violence a year. and there's aol actually a great article in the "new york times" pointing out 60% are from suicide. a lot of people die from guns in all sorts of different ways. the idea that i'm just asking for a vote, he has this riff you can vote against it if you want. do you think that's a compelling case? >> i think -- obviously it was horrific what happened in newtown. horrific when anybody dies. i think that he's a very good communicator so he uses that to strike emotion in people and so

he's using that to then go ahead and move an agenda that he likes. i think that it would be better if we would talk about the things that actually will help prevent things like what happened in newtown and, unfortunately, you know, even see vice president joe biden saying that oh, well, the things they have been talking about really aren't going to prevent things like that from happening. it is an emotional issue. he can talk about it. we should talk about the things that are going to -- what do you think those are? >> some of the ideas floating around what a are we going to do about our system for mental illness? what do we do about the people that actually use the guns because he talked about the fact that oh, these guns are killing people. it is the people with guns that are killing people. we really should explore with a about some kind of security for our children at schools? we secure money when, you know, money is transferred from banks. >> do you believe that? >> absolutely. i mean, we should look at it. i'm not sure if that's the actual -- >> there was an armed guard at columbine. if you want to look at -- here's

the problem i have with that particular argument is i feel like people who are very sort of vigorous in their defense of the second amendment and -- may or may not be you, typically they want to ait is everything except the guns. when we are talking about the problem. i would say it is everything including the guns. >> right. >> i feel like the left is giving on armed guards. i'm fine with armed guards in the schools. >> i am not. continue. >> i feel like i'm giving ground -- you want to put an armed guard in the school i'm okay with that. talk about mental illness, absolutely. i just think it is a complex issue. i feel like wayne la pea scare a lot of other people on the sort of gun side of this worked so hard to exclude guns from just being that -- piece of the pie. with. >> i think that's well said which is why i think it was such an for piece of the address and emotional piece because there's such a -- kind of radical reactionary response with any type of gun control violence. i think what to me -- struck me was there was an for pit from a

newtown sense of school massacre of gun violence to a more broadening of what gun violence is. sigh sides, every shootings that occur. that wasn't a major poke us and i think president obama helped bring that more to the forefront with his recent visit to chicago and state of the union a >> his -- i think he does have that power of emotion like you said. the only way that you are going to go up against, you know, gun advocates or people who really firmly believe in the second amendment is to appeal to their sense of humanity. right? the law is on their side. they do have the right to bear arms. so he -- to make the case that, you know, we need to scale back anything in that law or moderate it in any way he has to talk about real people. >> i think the refrain -- there's two things that are going on in public opinion. one is i felt this interesting. he took a lead on this. i think this was the most provocative and part -- part of the speech. not provocative in any way other than he was -- where he stood

was so unequivocal and rousing emotionally. here is what's interesting. if you ask people, do you favor opposed banning the sale of semiautomatic assault weapons? republicans 30% favor it and 64% oppose which is about what you would think. you add the president in a it. you say you attached the president to the policy and say -- president obama proposed banning the sale of semiautomatic assault weapons. it doesn't matter whether the president is associated. those views are pretty baked in. now, turn to immigration. this is really as if mating. if you compare what he said in the speech about guns to immigration, he was very quiet about immigration. will was only about 200 yards and short passage. take a look right now to hear how he talked about immigration. >> right now leaders from the business labor law enforcement, faith communities, they all agree that the time has come to pass comprehensive immigration reform. now is the time to do it. real reform means stronger

border security, and we can build on the progress my administration has already made. putting more boots on the southern border than any time in our history. and reducing illegal crossings to the lowest levels in 40 years. real reform means establishing a responsible pathway to earn citizenship. path that includes passing a background check. paying taxes and a meaningful penalty. learning english and going to the back of the line behind the folks trying to come here legally. >> that's the president talking about immigration. incredibly different tone, very different emotional register. almost kind of bureaucratic in its -- approach. and here's what i think is so interesting because i think they must know this polling inside the white house. you say to people to republicans, all right, do you favor creating a way for illegal immigrants to come here if they meet certain requirements. that's looking pretty good.

then you say president obama has proposed creating a way for illegal immigrants already here to become citizens that meet certain requirements. almost inverts. right? as soon as the president is associated with this particular policy, it goes away. and i -- i'm curious what your understanding is of that dynamic? particularly as a republican, difference between the gun position of republicans and where his attachment needs to be polarize. >> this is an issue i feel strongly about. i work order this in 2006 and 2007 when we tried to pass immigration reform. disappointed to your point, though, about two minutes and over an hour speech and touched immigration reform. even though he campaigned heavily in 2008 on this issue and, again, in 2012 on this issue. to us it was very disappointing. >> wait. even in doing the right thing -- because if that's the polling, the more he talks about it the more he imperils it. that -- i really -- genuinely believe that's the case. >> if you love something set it free.

>> i think he can talk about it smartly and i think -- you know, this comes from four years of demonizing republicans. when you actually dash putting out proposals they are weary of where he will go. he -- needs to talk about border security along with earned legal status and americans dash by -- we do polling, too. don't believe that the government is capable of securing our borders. his credibility on this is low. i don't think that that's what he shouldn't have talked about in the state of the union. >> i'm asking you a genuine question about this. right? if you want to s this passed, obviously do you. you worked hard on this. i think there -- i covered this issue, too. there is a relative amount of consensus about the immigration reform. if you want to see it passed and the president getting out front of it will imperil passing it, why do you want him to talk more about it? i-want you to answer that question after we take a break. ♪ alright, let's go.

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this -- the reason i ask this question, this is a complaint you hear across political spectrum against the president on a given issue. something they will say in congress p the president left this to nancy pelosi to do the recovery act the president didn't lead on x, y, z. sometimes it is accurate but sometime as tactical choice quite wise given what the political science literature says about the president polarizing himself into and it the poll we showed on immigration. shouldn't he stay away from this and let them work the deal out in the senate if he wants this passed? >> there are two tracks. congress has to be working on this which they are. senate is working on their primary work, congress is working on the different pieces of legislation that they would like to see. the president has to be at -- a part of this. i was telling you, president bush was a huge part of it trying to make this pass and it still didn't pass. president obama --

>> you had the president, at that time bush, trying to convince his party -- >> his own party. >> to enroll this thing. i don't think the president, current president, needs to do a lot of convincing of most democrats. >> he has to work in a bipartisan way. senator rubio hasn't been invited to the white house yet to talk about immigration reform is a problem. he needs to start working -- he needs to start doing it now. also -- >> isn't bipartisanship a dream of the 'minutes at this point? we have not seen very much of that in this congress at all. no matter what the president says, they are going to oppose him. >> you have a senate right now who bipartisan framework, it is -- already out there. if the president could start getting behind it and actually start doing internal things. we had weekly meet wings coalition groups, bipartisanship, to bring people together. that's not happening now. >> did you keep saying this is the thing we did the last time we had a colossal failure in trying to get the bill passed.

why should that persuade me that's the thing to do again? >> he has to at least do that if we are going to get to the other side. he has to be part of that. >> i mean, i think it is false to -- act like immigration reform hinges on -- it is really congress and senate and really the republican party. i mean -- >> republican house we should be clear here. biggest obstacle immigration reform has is the republican house. and there's no more -- figure more toxic to the republican house caucus than president obama. right? i mean, that's not -- they don't want -- do they want to be in a primary with an ad of then shaking hands with president obama? so-and-so signed on to president obama's immigration reform plan. that's absolutely kryptonite. >> they have to put their stuff forward. president has to lead sxoers be part of it. >> i mean, like she -- he's putting forth -- pretty bipartisan frame except zp and some people of the left critiquing that -- reform is putting too much restrictions on how people can come into this country. but president obama is trying to be a -- as middle of the road as possible. >> i think the -- issue here is

that the great story of the -- particularly the post 2011, you know, presidency of barack obama is how to deal with the republican opposition. that's the big story. even actually sort of after scott brown's special election in 2010. right? and the beginning of this term looks like it was going to be different. right? there was the -- there was the debt ceiling deal in which john boehner brought a vote to the floor even though didn't -- the majority of republicans. he brought another vote to the floor on the sandy supplemental. again, didn't have a majority of republicans and brought to it floor anyway. you start to think maybe this is really going to be different. this will be a different approach from republicans and then we got this week in which you had, it seemed, back to the same old approach. culminating with the hagel filibuster on -- was it friday, thursday, provide, you had this -- fairly unprecedented

filibuster of the dod nominee, 58 votes, but under the preverse rules of the united states senate, 58 votes is not good enough. all my hope is dashed. >> indeed. >> thank you. see you tomorrow. >> let's take the fiscal curve. that was not solved by the president. that was solved when the president backed away and joe biden started making calls and went to the senate and said i'm joe biden and i'm your buddy. biden seems to be a really good proxy for the president on these touchy issues and there's month reason that he can't take this while the president is out front on other issues. right? the president can't be out front on the five or six issues that are presented -- >> also, we are talking about the difference the way the president approached immigration and gun control. in some ways it is similar. let's vote. like i can't make you do something but like look, let's get you on record and it is already clear immigration, we

will come up with a vote ask see wait goes. let's make sure we get gun control for a vote and you all vote how you want but the american -- believes american public is with his side. >> that's alsoes so sad. she asking for nothing. >> is this with lindsey graham, who, by the way, looks like they let a 14-year-old into the senate. a man child. that's -- he is a youthful guy. is this really still about benghazi? that's what's amazing about how trying to hold up the hagel thing. i was on plane flying into florida and i was sitting next to someone who was -- let's just say -- a detractor of the president's and he said to me this benghazi thing is going to be bigger than watergate. this was before the election. >> is this at the beginning of the flight on the other hand of the plight? >> sadly in the middle. i realized i had would more hours of this. i was like -- i feel like there are certain -- segment of the republican population that are

obsessed by this benghazi thing and that's what i -- i feel like lindsey graham is doing to hold up the hagel thing. then want to leverage this into keeping the conversation about benghazi going which mystify meese. >> seems to me like the hagel obstruction is really kind of pretty raw bad faith. in the sense that a lot of what they want or holding up has nothing to do with anything that chuck hagel has done in his record, right? it is not about chuck hagel even though they have issues. as i said before in the program and said all this week, i don't know how good the head of dod, chuck hagel, would be. >> i can tell you my husband and in the marine corps and watched the hearings. it was abysmal. you can say it is the -- >> no, the hearings -- >> horrible. you expect senators to just jump onboard because the president nominated somebody. he was awful. >> why -- if he was awful then why not just give him a vote? if he was awful, give him a vote. if americans support the second amendment and don't like gun control, put it up for a vote. that's basic logic.

if you are right, put it up for a vote. if you are about where the american people are on guns then put it up for vote. >> this whole thing about gosh, it has been overplayed. no, it hasn't been overplayed. we still don't have a solution. we still haven't gotten to the bottom of it. we don't know why we didn't have security in place. we don't know where -- >> the world is a terrible and unpredictable place. >> the president should be held accountable for that. >> bad things happen to -- one american, two americans -- we are saying he needs to be held accountable. >> what does that mean? >> we need to find out what happened. why do we know what -- why don't we know what happened yet? it is riddick usiculous. >> i feel like i know what happen. >> we still don't know why four americans are dead because of this. you know what? a lot of the american people don't feel that way. >> you are right about that. there are people who think that it is -- i would argue, a bigger deal -- not a bigger deal but -- >> wow.

four americans died. and you are saying a bigger deal. it is a big deal. >> well, mine, 9/11 happened on george w. bush's watch. >> four americans die in a horrific, horrific, horrific what happen. we lost 5,000 people in iraq. >> no. that's also awful. i want to -- what i'm saying is you can't diminish people are concerned about benghazi is all of a sudden a ridiculous thing. >> i don't think there was a massive coverup. i'm not trying to bog everything down. >> that's -- benz to me -- what we are litigating here is the degree to which what is the undertaking by the republican opposition is good faith. i think a lot of people, luke, you read it as bad faith. in the context of hagel it is hard to see it as anything but bad faith. i remember the day my doctor said i had diabetes.

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congress between the president -- very ambitious domestic policy agenda, particularly in a congress that's going to have to vote on it, was the response from senator marco rubio. this is just a little bit. i think what's -- moatable here is it basically sounds like the campaign. it doesn't sound any different than a republican in, you know, mid 2012 or 2011. the same note he is striking. >> there are valid reasons to be concerned about the president's plan to grow our government. but any time anyone opposes the president's agenda, he and his allies usually respond by falsely attacking their motives. when we point out that no matter how many job killing laws we passed, our government can't control the weather. he accuses of us wanting dirty water and dirty air. when we suggest we strengthen our safety net programs by giving states more flexibility to manage them, he accuses us of wanting to leave the elderly and disabled to fend for themselves. tonight he he even criticized for us refusing to raise taxes

to delay military cuts, cuts that were his idea in the first place. his favorite attack of all is that those of us that don't agree with him, that we only care about rich people. >> the government can't control our weather line drove me bananas. i thought -- i mean, look -- i don't -- i don't believe in like all this split bipartisanship stuff. people should believe in what they believe in. i'm not like off oenlded marco rub joe going hard at the president. he is a republican and he is giving me opposition. i just think that what's interesting to me from the internal conversation within the republican party that's been playing out in the conservative magazines and in different venues about what do we do now in the wake of the election, that it seems to me like what came out of the marco rubio response is like -- we are just going to ham other the same stuff. government is too big and regulation kills jobs. taxes are too high. et cetera. which is -- was basically the romney campaign platform. >> i have to say like maybe i believed the time magazine hype

and i liked the -- marco rubio was on the cover leading up to this. maybe also because i was really excited to hear marco rubio has been pushing this, you know, immigration reform. i thought that maybe we are going to get like a younger, more dynamic, more open to talking about things off-limits for republicans guy who is trying to be president and i would agree that i was a little disappointed because it felt like right down the mid federal the republicans. >> more interesting republican state of the union was rand paul. more inning in terms of substance and politically because it is like -- here is a rebut actual the rebuttal. ron paul is holding accountable -- this mitt romney and rubio follow the same type of line trying to be a little bit more conservative than obama but not try to scare off the political base and rand paul slyke no, we want sequester. it shows the fight happening in

the political party. what they are talking about is what will happen within the republican party. are they willing to work to try to help govern or hold on to really strong ideological stances like rand paul and hold to 2016. >> do you think the core message on government is too big, regulation killing jobs, taxes need to be lowered. do you think that's politically effective for -- >> effective. we go out and -- the community and it is. small businesses are being strangled now by the regulation and you roll your eyes but that's what -- >> what are -- what are the regulations? >> you said it was effective. >> no, no. what i'm saying -- messenger, also, is very for. and -- rubio is an amazing mess ensxwrer great communicator and that's why he is getting attack because if it was mediocre sort of response people would not care. he -- >> looked very mediocre. that's your opinion. 50% of the population thought rubio was awesome. he talks about things in a way that really bring it to real life.

had comes from -- >> you hi it is -- the messenger. you think fundamentally basically the romney message -- which this was this is different vessel can work. >> you can -- characterize it all you want. obama said the exact same thing in the state of the union. same old same old. >> basically, yes. he just won an election. >> the thing is -- >> i know. >> 28 minutes. >> i mean, he comes from immigrants. he talks about being in the middle class. his father was a bar the ender, mother was secretary. he rose. he has the american dream story. he can communicate that. he does it in a way that attracts people. >> no. the point is -- there is a difference there. i think there is a degree to which -- >> you can talk to -- >> he did. >> everyone does. >> everyone writes the story about themselves how they were brought up.

>> i think he has a great story. i think he is an interesting guy. that's why i was disappointed because i feel like he could really be somebody interesting and i felt like he went with -- >> my control room is telling me i'm way over. thanks for coming here. one of the biggest surprises in the president's state of the union address after this. [ tylenol bottle ] nyquil what are you doing? [ nyquil bottle ] just reading your label. wait...you relieve nasal congestion? sure don't you? [ nyquil bottle ] dude! [ female announcer ] tylenol® cold multi-symptom nighttime relieves nasal congestion. nyquil® cold and flu doesn't. a hairline fracture to the mandible and contusions to the metacarpus. what do you see? um, i see a duck. be more specific. i see the aflac duck. i see the aflac duck out of work and not making any money.

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one who works full time should have to live in poverty and raise the federal minimum wage to $9 an hour. this single step would raise the incomes of millions of working families. could it mean the difference between groceries or the food bank. rent or eviction. scraping by or finally getting ahead. for business essay ross the country it would mean customers with more money in their pockets. >> republicans and business groups immediately began lining up against increasing the minimum wage. here's house speaker john boehner, the next day. >> when you raise the price of employment, guess what happens. you get less of it. i have 11 brothers and sisters on every rung of the economic ladder. i know about the -- this issue of as much as anybody in this town. and what happens when you take away the first couple of rungs on the economic ladder, you make it harder for people to get on

the ladder. >> john boehner was channeling what conventional wisdom and economics 101 textbooks told us increasing the kovs employment causes reduction in employment. as it kurns out that's not always the case. there is a growing body of strong evidence increasing in minimum wage within a certain range have no negative effect on unemployment. minimum wage increases may boost worker efficiency and add new demand to the economy by putting more money in the pockets of low-wage workers. the common gop -- about the low-wage workers, many are teenage workers, part time with summer jobs. in fact, 84% of the workers that would benefit are over 20 years old and nearly half that would benefit from the federal minimum wage increase are if you-time workers and over 54% have a combined family income of less than $40,000 a year.

joining me is arindrajit dube from the university of massachusetts-amherst. great to have you all here. and i'm psyched about getting into the minimum wage literature because it is super -- it is really super interesting. the reason it is interesting and for is the story about how a minimum wage works is one of the basic, you know, u just draw a supply and demand curve and you think about the cost of labor and if you apply it in other places, right, if the government mandated that you had to sell a loaf of bread for over $5, what we would see is a shortage in bread. there would be less bread being sold because you couldn't -- because it would be more expensive. households would consume less of it. that story was just applied for many years for minimum wage. this is a simple story we tell about where the prices and government comes in and mandates a price and creates shortages.

and then there started being empirical work. maybe you can walk us true what the work says about what the effects of minimum wage increases have been on unemployment. >> sure. yes. i think -- the background here is that until early '90s or so you actually had moss of the -- practical minimum wage and not state level minimum wages. starting in early '90s, we actually started seeing a lot of variation across the states and in part because the practical minimum wage was stagnant for so long during the '80s 'zmints in 2000s. what happens states start acting and increase minimum wage. not the best way to set the policy. a decade before increasing it. then having all of this variation driven really by politics and not by what makes economic sense. but it is good for us geeks because we actually get to use variation across the different areas to really study the effect of the minimum wages. it is starting in the early '90s

you have a set of studies that actually -- try to use this variation across the states to try to see what happens when the minimum wage rises. famous one is, you know, by alan krueger. the cea right now. counsel of economic adviser. they -- they -- really simple study. new jersey, increasing the minimum wage. pennsylvania right next door, what happens to new jersey and pennsylvania when pennsylvania does not increase the minimum and new jersey does? you would think well, maybe if the sort of econ 101 model is correct then -- you should see employment loss ask new jersey as opposed to pennsylvania. you don't see that. >> they looked at counties on the border, right? have you these counties that are adjacent each other and looked at restaurants, restaurant employment. >> exact. >> i you got a good close match. i mean, the board we are -- it is fairly porous. you can get a job, you know if

you are 15 minutes from the county line and the state line, you can get a job over there. you would imagine that would be the location where the most employment effects would happen. >> that's right. and -- what -- you know, what they found was there was no evidence of job loss for the restaurants on the new jersey side of the border. that was -- of course, that shored up a lot of controversy. the good news about this case study is as just said, you are looking really close by to each other or the treatment group and control group using that terminology, likely to be similar. but it is a single case and that criticism was made at the same time and there's other literature that says okay, let's use all the -- variation and in minimum wages but then you end up doing things like comparing new jersey with texas. and that's not necessarily a good idea. what we did, in our work is to sort of take the -- advantages of both of these methods by a, pooling all of the data together over a long period of time

between 1990 and 2006 and look across all of the border segments in the united states. >> massive database, 16 years of data, look at all of the dashboarder county comparisons and differentials and wages and sometime that's go up or down. you correlate that controlling for other factors with employment and you find -- >> no evidence of job loss for the type of minimum wages we have seen in the last 20 years. this is true for looking at restaurants and retail as well as looking at high impact groups like teens. this is -- this is something that stands out whereas there's month reduction in jobs, we find actually -- strong reduction in turnover. >> lew, does that drive with your business as small business owninger? >> absolutely. a reason i never paid minimum wage because it is very expensive to sxind train people. i have really good people. they are running my business so i can be here today. saturday and sunday, big days. by paying more, i can retain

them. by paying more, i can actually demand more of them and it turns out they demand more of themselves. i think -- >> this is known in economics -- interesting term called the efficiency wage. >> yes. >> idea in economics if you pay wage above the market clearing rate you actually can induce more productivity. you can actually induce better work in the worker. >> also, the environment i work this is filled with acree eigcr employees. musicians, ex-michael jacksons, deejays, artists of different kinds. from freeing them from worrying about the wage -- the wang, they are prey to be creative in my zblors you met with the president and told them -- talked about minimum wage. i want to hear that story. i want to hear about how republicans are sort of dealing with minimum wage and their thoughts what to do with the bottom of the economic run after we come back. my mother made the best toffee in the world.

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lew, you are the most for kind of person in america. you are a small business owner. >> job creating genius. >> exactly. you actually met with the president along with mall business owners. my understand sing that this came up specifically minimum wage. >> yes. >> this is why i was shocked when it showed up in the -- state of the union because i -- i have to admitted i take a very cynical attitude through -- towards these kind of events. i just assume they are photo-ops. show trials for tv. the -- president sat down in the room and -- with a dozen small business people. and literally said what can i do for you? the first thing that one of us said, the guy that was owns uncommon goods in brooklyn, raise the minimum wage to ten bucks. in unison the other dozen of us

said yeah. >> this was not a -- randomized focus group of small business owners. people that supported the president. there's some -- i just want to make that very clear. >> they seemed surprised. we gave them the reasons. it is exactly what he said in the state of the union. which is putting 300 bucks a month in the hands of the customers is the best economic stimulus the country can have and that money tends to get spent in the businesses more than my other. >> you guys have done a lot of work on raising minimum wage locally. where does the political resistance tend to come from. it polls extremely well. >> extremely well. you know. there was a poll last year that found that 74% of likely voters supported raising the minimum wage, includi wage. opposition is not among the american public. we are working with 16 state campaigns to raise the minimum wage. some of them pushing $10, $11 minimum wages. it is not with the public. i mean, it is -- you know, the

public see what $14,500 a we are for a pull-time worker means. they see the cost of living is increasing and the minimum wage isn't following suit. they see that, you know, over the last 40 years of the minimum wage kept pace with inflation it would be $10.55 an hour today. they see the fact our economy has dramatically shifted so we are, you know, core of our labor market is low wage work. service sector work. jobs that pay, you know, barely $10 an hour. retail, child care. home health care. food prep. these are the jobs that growing in our economy. you know. the good paying jobs of yesterday have gone and a lot of them are not coming back. the public sees all of this. and so they -- that's why they support raising the minimum wage by so much. where is the opposition? you know. it is with lawmakers. >> also, interest groups. >> yes. let me say i was doing a lot of reading on minimum wage and sort of where people fall on this. i could probably, you know, yesterday i saw -- talking to an economist who was telling me -- he's not really republican or democrat.

he was just -- telling me that when you raise the minimum wage, then inflation goes up. then you raise the minimum wage and inflation goes up and you raise the minimum wage. i said well, how does that affect -- well, let's sma one working at mcdonald's, minimum wage, they pass the, you know, price on to the consumer. so -- again, i can -- we can probably get, you know, 50 economists on either side telling us why it is good or bad. then also businesses like you say -- >> you won't get a business owner that says that. the -- portion of wages, that is -- in my cost, is actually relatively small and even -- even in the manufacturing and a whole lot of areas. it is relatively small. my overhead is complicated and large. and -- the minimum wage -- the wage, is actually mall part of it. prices in america, this is -- you know, great secret. prices in america are not set by the cost of making something or doing something. prices are set by what market research tells most companies you are willing to pay.

ten bucks at yankee stadium is not because -- >> of course not. >> get it there to the bar across the street where it is two buck. >> and one of the interesting things here about -- this in terms of -- i want to talk about this inflation argument. will are two arguments republicans tend to make against it. i want to play marco rubio making one of them. one of the interesting -- interest aspects of the research i found was the surprising result that you have found -- others have found, i should say there is research new mark line of research which is against this. right? which says it does have a -- disemployment effect. in the -- the research found there is not a negative employment effect, one of the things then found is the factors of the -- cost factors in a business are so multi-variable and some spike all the time that businesses are actually pretty used to encompassing large price spikes whether it is in -- commodity sources or things like that and is actually -- dished channels to deal with it inside the firm that end up meaning you don't have this. i want to hear about that and

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i don't think the minimum wage law works. we all support -- i certainly do, having more taxpayers, more people employed and i want people to make a lot more than $9. $9 is not enough. the problem is that if you can't do that by mandating it in the minimum wage laws. minimum wage laws never worked in terms of helping the middle class attain more prosperity. >> that's marco rubio making the argument against the minimum wage. republicans are making it right out of the hershman rhetoric book, few stilt argument. raise unemployment and one of the arguements, you hear about inflation. i-want to you respond to that idea that if you have a minimum wage, particularly if you pay the minimum wage from inflation you are going to cost of living create this horrible wage price spiral. >> the problem with that argument is that there's -- just so few workers that are making

minimum wage that -- the idea that at 24% increase in minimum wage would actually peak the overall inflation rate. this is no economist who would argue that. it may peak the -- in the cost -- may affect the prices of a burger. >> passed on. >> so for instance, maybe it will increase a price of a burger by up to 1%. if you increase 25% increase of the minimum wage. okay. part of that is the -- you know, how -- the consumers react to that. do they react poorly and stop buying burgers for one more cent or absorb that cost? >> i think the reality is that a lot of it gets absorbed easily. the idea that it is going to create a wage spike -- wage price spiral, while you are increasing the wage for, you know, 7% of the work force, is just -- really doesn't makes sense can we go back to the purpose of the minimum wage? when congress enacted the federal minimum wage in 1938 it said it was doing so to

eliminate substandard conditions and to make sure work coarse survive and make sure business that's paid their workers weren't being undercut by unscrupulous workers paying their workers virtually nothing. have to look at what congress was responding to. labor market of the early 19th century. factory sweat shops. sweatshops that exist today, by the way, but with employers that are breaking the minimum wage law by not paying minimum wage, by not paying overtime. the purpose of a minimum wage law is to guard against these horrific labor conditions and it has succeeded. if senator rubio is saying that the minimum wage law isn't working because people are still living in poverty, yes, that's the whole point of raising the minimum wage. >> also -- >> to say one more thing about the inflation is just -- has do with the other part profit postal. indexation. this is really for. because -- whatever we think the level of the minimum wage should be, it is a terrible idea to adjust it by going for five to ten years having a big fight about it. >> also, just having the real value go down. >> the -- dirty secret here many ways democrats in the past liked it not to be indexed because the

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he won a contest online to be ceo for the day. how am i supposed to run a business here without an office?! [ male announcer ] fast, reliable deliveries worldwide. fedex. i'm chris hayes. arindrajit dube of the university of massachusetts-amherst. lew prince. glad to have you here. we are in the thick of a minimum wage discussion. and talking about sort of the different contested claims to minimum wage, proposal to raise the minimum wage to $9 from $7.25. there is a variety of states that have higher minimum wages. lew, a lot of the resistance to

raising the minimum wage, talked about how popular the polling is, it comes from two different areas. i wanted to show this really interesting bit of data. our crack producer found. this is a study about something called last-place aversion. i think it is really interesting and explains a lot about american politics. basically the idea is people don't want to be in what is perfect seavered to be last place. so if you ask people about raising the minimum wage, right, people making the minimum wage, think it is a good idea. people making a little more or a lot more than minimum wage think it is -- basic lay good idea. people making just above the minimum wage, the support drops. the reason the support drops is because people -- if the minimum wage raises to where they are, then they now find themselves in last place. there is a really as if mating politics happening at the bottom end of the wage scale. i thought that this chart gives you a sense of that. you graph it along what people are making and see the big drop-off there just above what the minimum wage is. what do you -- what's your experience among fellow business owners?

>> classic example of people not understanding their own economic best interest. because it is -- essentially when you -- raise the minimum wage, you force a lot of businesses to raise the next guy -- the person at the next level and person above that. and there really is a -- >> rippling-up effect. >> to use mr. boehner's words, it pushes them several rungs up the ladder. it is a really effective tool to sort of start addressing the disparity waen the wage earners at the bottom and the wage earners at the top. and push people literally push them towards the middle class. >> the politics of this, very successful. republicans voted -- 2007 and 2008 and 2009. >> well, it was -- it was a phased -- in increase. one congressional votes. >> but they voted the faced-in. the 2007 vote, right, was fairly bipartisan. am i right. >> yes. it was signed by president george w. bush.

>> what has the resistance -- what's been your -- in the different states trying to get this -- where is the resistance? how have you overcome it? >> the resistance is with special interests and political lawmakers that, you know, don't -- just for some reason ideologically opposed to the wage and proven to be insanely popular and we need immediate for an economic recovery agenda. what the president said in the state of the union how the minimum wage is key to economic involve i have so true because these are the jobs that more and more americans are spending there. if we want to build the -- if we want to grow the middle class, grow the middle class, if we want to just make sure the workers survive, we need to figure out a way to raise job standards in these industry. >> to your point before we left on the break he said democrats don't want to do tin decksing because it is a great political issue for them. everybody was caught by surprise when the president brought it up in the state of the union. >> mitt romney endorsed that in the campaign. >> the fact is that -- it was --

tactically probably a good thing for him because look at what we are talking about. we are only talking about the minimum wage. we are not talking being tax reform. we are not talking about the deficit. we are not talking about the debt. >> we are talking about minimum wage. that's the top i can it is like this shiny object. this is what i'm going to do because all the rest of the other stuff -- it is not a shiny object. it is something that will raise pay for millions of workers across this country. there are 19 states that have higher -- okay. sure. sure. fine. let's start with the minimum wage. let's start with it and raise -- >> here's my question for you as a republican. i think this is an interesting -- you know, it is -- rough to be at the bottom of the labor scale. >> making $14,500. >> we tried get a worker, that made minimum sxwaj went through different acrobatic. >> a lot of them have to work. the other thing, to be honest, i don't think you need to convince people that it is better to make

$9 an hour than $7.25. that's a clear case. >> who doesn't want to make more mon money? >> presumably in the past -- >> bringing in -- >> what's i-sing in the past the argument against minimum wage has been this argument that you actually create more unemployment. okay. and -- economists always say that -- right. suggests that's not the story. although some people contend it is. let's say it works pep economists say the efficient thing do, milton friedman model, right, negative income tax credit. th's an efficient way -- rather than the government coming in machine dating wages, right just having an efficient transfer. what i think is so interesting if you look at hose two, you get -- it zeros in on what we mean by big government and what our opposition to big government is. at a certain level mandating a wage, right, is a heavy handed use of the state's power but it doesn't cost the government a dime. the earned income tax credit is

an efficient transfer from economics 101 but actually costs money out of the treasury. my question to you as a republican, which of two policies do you prefer in the scenario or is the answer none of the above for people at the bottom of the wage scale? >> i prefer other options. i mean the fact that we have a $16 trillion deficit the fact that -- >> why does that matter to low-wage workers? >> what i'm saying is when you are talking about president's economic package, he -- is talking about this because it is one thing that he can probably propose and maybe be successful whereas whereas -- >> republican party -- got destroyed among low-wage workers. >> which i am not representing. >> republican party -- i know. >> i'm just saying the republican party got destroyed. b a perception that's essentially a -- party of, you know, economic royalism. it does not -- my question is, what does a republican have to

say to a low-wage worker? what do you say to that worker specifically to that worker about improving their lot? >> i think there's many things. small businesses right now need to grow. they need to be able to higher more people when you force it and i know that there -- you say that it is going to help you but there are small businesses that -- do come out, again, just like the economists who say this is going to hurt me. >> just going back to the minimum wage versus the itc. it doesn't -- itc does some good things. lot of good things. one of the things it does is by increasing labor supply, which is a good thing, ends up pushing down wages. some of the wage increases, wage decreases, mean that the itc public spending getting captured by low wage employers. minimum wage stops that. there is a lot of -- >> in tandem. >> by david newmark, meeting

critics of the minimum wage finded in the most recent work the minimum wage actually complements the itc. look at their work, not advertise. not advertise. but -- exactly. shows that. >> if you are just focus order the itc a lot of the people saying we just need to do -- expand the itc, corporate interests. why are they so into it? it is because they want to be able to subsidize the low wagers this paying thai workers with taxpayers taking the full responsibility of making sure that low wage earners aren't living in poverty. >> exactly. >> they don't say that. >> keeping the minimum wage low forces small businesses to support their competition to underwrite their competition. i will give you an example. in missouri we have -- missouri health net. the last year on the website they have any number force is 2009. first quarter of 2009, walmart workers, used $4.25 million of missouri health net funds. the -- next biggest one, i

think, was tyson who used like $1.4 million. small businesses who -- don't cash don't have the fancy accounting and don't have offshore accounts, end up paying -- normal taxpayers and end up paying into these funds. i'm essentially underwriting walmart's ability on sell cd and less than i paid for them. >> subsidizing the wages through the social safety net. >> in a lot of cases, it is the large retailers that are ones paying rock bottom wage. >> what's -- what do we know about the -- the -- sort of universe appeal of paying minimum wage? is it -- local small business owes enlike lew or large employers? >> 2/3 of people that make minimum wage are at companies with over 100 employees. large corporations whose profits have not only recovered since the recession but in some cases are even higher than they were before the recession. these are corporations that can totally pay -- afford to pay a minimum wage that's closer to historic value. >> i think -- again, in line

with the president's line about the gun violence, i think they should just give eight vote and -- see where it goes. i want to thank jennifer p. arindrajit dube, you don't know of massachusetts-amherst. lew prince. it was spirited and enjoyable. thank you very much. all right. >> we need an hour. >> i have a cold, and i took nyquil, but i'm still stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't unstuff your nose. what? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels speeds relief to your worst cold symptoms plus has a decongestant for your stuffy nose. thanks. that's the cold truth!

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president obama made a strong push to create a pre-k program across the country. kids are short in encage when they enter kindergarten. three in four tare enrolled in pre-k. the president made this point in tuesday's state of the union address. on thursday in georgia, the first state in the country to provide universal pre-school for all 4-year-olds. >> study after study shows that the earlier a child begins learning, the better he or she does down the road. here tees thing. we are not doing enough to give all of our kids that chance. in states like georgia that made it a priority to educate our youngest children, states like oklahoma, students don't just show up in kindergarten, first grade more prepared to learn, they are also more likely to grow up reading and doing math

at grade level, graduating from high school, holding a job, and even forming more stable families. >> stud vees shown we-- the learning skills the more affluent parents have to give to their kids. higher income kids are more likely to spend time in pre-school. possibly. probably because their parents can afford it. the benefits directly related to early childhood education have not been lost on other countries. the average pre-school enrollment is 77%. average pre-school enrollment for the u.s. hovers just above 56%. around 55.7%. voluntary universal pre-k had broad support. georgia providing free pre-school for any 4-year-old whose parents want it. with the alabama's governor calling for a 16% increase in the budget it seems like rare example of good policy that could conceivably maybe find

something like bipartisan support. back to the table dedrick muhammad, diane shotzenbach, associate professor of human development in social policy at northwestern university. great to have you all here. >> thanks for having us universal pre-k, walk us through the research here. this has been -- i made a joke the other day it is like -- almost like the joke about worthwhile initiative. it is like a liberal cliche that obviously this is a good idea and -- research just seems to grow and grow and grow. suggesting. what are the -- what are the below the headlines of the research that people -- folks may not know. >> i want to start by saying they are not -- not many areas where you see this level of agreement among -- people ranging from jim heckman to al krueger, ben bernanke, all agree

on this policy issue which is that this is a really good investment for children. so calculates that every collar spent on high quality early childhood education pay as 10% return in the long run. something that's -- maybe not well moan is that studies have shown that this is the most efficient time and in the life psych tool invest in people. if we invest in job training, kids are older, things like that, we get much less of a bang for the buck than we do if we start when kids are quite young. there's scientific studies on the green that back this up about the brain and i have a 4-year-old myself. they are sponges at this point in time. >> let me ask you this. the big counter example and i think the place where this gets contested is what that term high quality is doing a lot of work. right? it almost seems kind of -- if i said like -- you know, if you get high quality education, a

great return. well, sure, yeah. absolutely. it is like -- you know what, if you get a high quality job you are really going to like your job. the high quality is doing all the work there. the question of -- high quality in my understand sing that word in some ways is being used to mean not head start. a lot of the panel data we have on head start which is, of course, the signature program in the federal government to do early childhood education, the -- biggest study of that seemed to show results that were eh. >> i think that this week -- head start studies have been maligned, unfairly. i think our best research on head start -- seems to show that there are long-term positive outcomes. we see from the head start results, you know, increase and likelihood you graduate from high school and increased college going. one study from the 1960s from head start that happened in 1960s that finds kids are less likely to die of consequences -- causes that mate have something to do with poverty. >> you think the line head start

actually is not what it is sold as or actually doesn't help kids. it is just wrong. data does not bear this out. >> that's correct. we have tons and tons of research on this. i think we can do better than head start. i think head start has been falsely maligned this week. >> what's your feeling about this? i guess the question is -- a, do you think this is the right direction to go policywise? b, do you have skepticism about the implementation? >> it is tough to be -- be against pre-k. >> that's the idea. minimum waging and pre-k, let's do it, america. >> you raised a good point which is -- on education, sort of generally like it is one of the rare areas where there seems to be some consensus between republicans and democrats and that kind of thing. new jersey is sort of -- very far down the road and in terms of implementing a high-quality pre-k experience for 3 and 4-year-olds a 4-year-old. extraordinarily epic k-12 public

school spending. to your point the definition of high quality there at least it is worth looking at. there are lots of requirements on it that i think are unmess. like -- toilets have to be this high. and kids immediate this much square footage. there's other ones pretty good like class sizes, site being really for in pre-k. if not so much in k-12 where the research is over. like 15-1. it is extremely expensive. it is like $13,000 a student. 20% higher than the k-12 national average. this is a big deal in terms of the expense of going universal. but the -- thing i would argue is the most for piece about it is it is one of the country's biggest school choice programs. it is a state pay and parent chosen and mixed delivery system with sort of private community based providers. and -- districts competing against one another. and anything in sort -- expansion, like for a focus on

low-income kids, where i think it should be, if you are not delivering this in a way that's competitive where parents controlling where the pre-k education happens, i think you are sort of looking more uphill than you already are now. >> derrell is making me nervous. >> let me say -- >> naacp has been a big proponent. >> that's right. we did a report. finaling our way -- finding our way to first was part -- name of the report. first part was this idea of universal pre-k. the naacp report, it is pretty broad and just as president obama's -- call for universal pre-k is broader. not like it has to be this, this, this. i think it is pretty focused on getting federal money to states -- states to implement what this -- universal pre-k is. could it have an evolved school choice. i don't believe that universal pre-k is going to solve everything. i think that we immediate to be

clear in -- you know, we can talk about this much earlier on. state of the union address, it was a broad address. host of economic issues. quality pre-k education but you don't get quality k or middle score oi or high school. you don't have quality jobs in your community. i don't believe that -- still going on have these issues. i mean, i don't believe that school choice either is a -- will solve everything. >> i mean, it says something about the way our current system is set up if you will expand education it is almost outside of our political realm of the imagemation. that you would actually mandate a new level of school. the way we deal with policy problems now, it is we are going to -- coupon state. we are going to send money and go into the private market and mark set going to provide it. no one is saying back in 1917 walter mondale had a proposal that had a lot more basically creating a new grade of school before kindergarten nationally. that's very different than what is being proposed now. i want to talk about the details with the republican senator, very excited to have, who supports universal pre-k but

skeptical of the president's program that he's from your home state of georgia and we are going to talk to senator isakson just after this. [ male announcer ] how could switchgrass in argentina, change engineering in dubai, aluminum production in south africa, and the aerospace industry in the u.s.? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing. [ sneezes ] [ sniffles ] [ female announcer ] for everything your face has to face. face it with puffs facial tissues. puffs has air-fluffed pillows for 40% more cushiony thickness. face every day with puffs softness.

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overachiever. [ female announcer ] tylenol® cold multi-symptom nighttime relieves nasal congestion. nyquil® cold and flu doesn't. i want to set the table with the kind of iconic study of the long-term effects which is the pre-school study. this is the one that gets cited the most. it is the data, the leading work on early childhood development and the returns on investment to pre-k and early education spending. you know, when you look at the -- randomized study which is why we like it. when you luc at the percentage that enrolled in preschool, 7%, not in preschool, arrests for drug dealing. public assistance, adult, this gets to this investment thing. right? if you are paying early on, keeping people off the public assistance roles later on and recouping that money. 15% in the preschool and 35% not

in preschool. higher rates of ownership, much higher rates of 12th grade education. that's the case in a nutshell. that study is the case in the nutshell. i want to bring in senator isakson of georgia. former member of the house education committee. senator, you have a program in your state that you have been a big supporter of that the president himself touted and i wonder -- what was going through your mind when the president gave a shout-out to georgia's program in the state of the union. >> well, i had a flashback to 1990 when governor miller and i were proponents and he came up with a 4-year-old voluntary program. he came up with a way to fund that program which was statewide lottery which require ad constitutional amendment and ratification by the people of georgia. we created a dedicated source of funds to fund the 4-year-old

pre-kindergarten program. the thought that ran through my mind when the president was speaking is this is a great idea. it is a 6% increase in the number of teachers you have to hire. number of classrooms you have to build. and the amount of money you have to spend. we got to find money to do it. >> do you think the money can be found? one of the things that's interest sing -- in the sense of cost of the overall federal budget just to give a sense of the money here, estimated the cost of a program like this, again, details matter. roughly in the ballpark, of about $100 billion over ten years. that's about $15 billion a year. just to give a sense of what had a is in the tax extenders package that just got through, the active financing credit, which is a tax loophole for wall street itself alone was $9 billion for this year. it does seem to me that if this is something we want to prioritize, we think it is an for investment, republican or democrat, we can probably find $10 billion a year for it. right? >> well, you have to remember this. we are $16.5 trillion in debt. deficit running $1.2 trillion a

year. we can't afford to add a cost on to government and you have to find the funds to do it. in education, the last big mandate on public/private partnership was i.d.e.a. which mandate ad 40% additional very many by the states and education of kids with disabilities. the practical government promised the money to fund the mandate but to this date only 25% of that money is funded. the states are going to say where's the -- where's the money. >> this program has been very politically -- good it has been. senator isakson -- one, i have to stop and say thank you for a couple of things. one i want to thank you for your involvement in creating the georgia peach program that helped moms and fathers who were on welfare. you know, to receive subsidies. so that they could go back to work, so that those children can get early childhood education and then the follow-on of

volunteer pre-k. my kids benefited from both. in fact, my -- oldest daughter, katherine, was one of the first children to come through the georgia pre-k program. she is at brown. can you -- >> good school. >> can you not say -- great school. can you not say, senator ice sack son, that the money that would be invested on the front end, certainly -- something i have seen you support and -- you know, glad that you did that. can you not say that the outcomes that finishing high school, that, you know -- >> staying out of prison, decreases in early pregnancy, illicit drug use. all of the other things that become a tax organize weight on our tax base on our society. doesn't that -- >> do you buy this very many case that the -- literature suggests the president made explicit reply in the state of the union? >> no. i don't think there is my question but. both in terms of peach care and voluntary 4-year-old pre-k

kindergarten program. we do have to find the money to fund it. you can't just hope to pay back comes in dollars. it dmoms a better light for those children, better quality of their health. better quality of their education. we need a pay back to pay the tax dollars that will take to fund the program. >> senator, i want to -- ask you about where you think the politics of this will go if there will be some enthusiasm for trying to find the money for it. if we think it is a good idea, something we should prioritize and find the money for it. where the politics of this are going to go in washington right after we take this quick break. if we took the nissan altima and reimagined nearly everything in it? gave it greater horsepower and class-leading 38 mpg highway... advanced headlights... and zero gravity seats? yeah, that would be cool. introducing the completely reimagined nissan altima. it's our most innovative altima ever. nissan. innovation that excites.

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i want to play you something that stew a varny said on "fox and friends" that seems to me like -- you know, the kind of rhetoric you might expect in reaction to this from conservatives. there is famous case in 1971 of walter mondale proposing something that looked like universal pre-k. it met with a real backlash,

very conservative religious backlash against incursions into what's the domestic sphere. wane goat your thoughts whether this is the kind of thing you expect to hear from the republican party about this proposal. >> look what the president is doing here. it is a repeat perfect form answer of his campaign which is you raise taxes on the rich and you offer all kinds of free stuff to people who will vote for you in the if you. this is one of those occasions. free pre-school education for 4-year-olds. it is free. hear it is. hand out the goodies. what the president is really doing here -- he is not saying how he will pay for this, buying votes with future taxpayer money and he's increasing the scope of the unions because -- teachers union which will staff the pre-schools. he's introducing big government, more big government, to the states. >> is this proposal to your mind for republicans like yourself, is this dead on arrival which is

what would seem to be suggested by stewart varny's rhetoric there or do you think that this is something you want to see republicans work on the details of to get -- identify a funding stream reliable and make sure the details are right which of those past-forward? >> in the attempts of overall plan to reduce deficit and did he begin to balance our budget i don't think any new federal program will be very well receive order the republican side or quite frankly, on the democratic side. and remember this, in georgia, we found a source of funding before we started the 4-year-old pre-kindergarten program. used a voucher program. we used public schools where the -- public schools had the classrooms available. we put together a very flexible program that was paid for. and if we are going to have a federal program we immediate to inspire the local systems to come up with the money to fund that program and motivate them to do so. >> i will say that -- again, the white house didn't put out a ton of pain other this.

what they put out are broadly along those lines it looks like. there's somethingsome things they said about making sure that -- certain minimum standards for the teachers, teamers had -- early childhood development and levels of education that are -- equal to -- k through 12 teachers but that broadly the way they are -- envisioning instruction program is this matching fund approach in which you have the federal government match programs that get expanded by the states. >> we have $270 million that comes in from the total assistance to parents who need daycare, pre-k assistance. 54 million in stay matching funds. 70% of that number goes directly into this classroom situation that -- we have something else in georgia that we have vnt talked about. last year we passed legislation that allowed for financial incentives for people who met and increased standard. you had 700 school facilities

sign up and enroll. >> race to the top. >> race to the top among this in order to find sorted of the best innovative ideas to push higher standards across the entire system. i think that only benefits the kids. >> i want to add, the senator brought up a key point which is why i am not so optimistic about pre-k being enacted because if the idea is that you have to have some type of budget agreement first before we can move forward on any positive program no matter how many people support it, then i think it is going to be gobbled up by the partisanship we have seen around the budget issue which is to me disconcerting. >> we only have -- pre-k sort of -- universal pre-k in the districts in new jersey because it was court ordered. it was not legislative-legislated. the discussion of expanding it is dead on arrival. >> let's imagine a better future in which it was not dead on arrival. i want to talk about what the details -- little built of the devil in the details and also --

talk about what we -- there mate be on the republican side. senator isakson from georgia, i appreciate your joining us this morning. it is great to have you here. you are welcome back any time. next time in new york i would love to have you at the table wes . ov and kept turning the page, writing the next chapter for the rx and lexus. this is the pursuit of perfection.

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i love the fact that quicken loans provides va loans. quicken loans understood the details and guided me through every step of the process. i know wherever the military sends me, i can depend on quicken loans. we are talking about the pre-k. senator isakson from georgia, frustratingly, i think the -- his diagnosis of the politics of this is that sure, it is a great idea in the abstract. deficit and debt crowded out. and -- i guess i want to hear your thoughts on that coming at pretty the research. you are make thing strong investment case. an very many case can be made even when you don't -- even when you are in debt. particularly u.s. government which is a totally different thing than -- household. the investment case is strong, investment case is strong whether we have a $16 trillion debt or $1 trillion debt. right. >> that's exactly right.

i think now is the -- as good a time as any. this is a good investment, you know. what's not one we are going to see payoffs for for another 20 years. >> one of the arguments from skeptics of it is the effects fade out. that -- you -- you -- particularly the argument made about head start, sure, do better in first grade and by third grade, you know, the testing is essentially on par with the control group that didn't get through head start, et cetera. james has a response to that and response you also wanted to talk about. >> that's right. puzzle we found in material childhood literature, from pre-school to the head start program, to our work on k kindergartki kindergarten classrooms, it is that we find -- strong impacts at the beginning and the first few years that fade out somewhat over time especially when they are measured by cognitive test scores. test scores fade out but then see when kids -- reach adulthood, age 22, 24, the strong gains reappear in terms of things college attendance,

wages, criminal behaviobehavior pregnancy, there is a good explanation in that -- early childhood you can effect cognitive skills and non-cognitive skills, ability to finish things. how for it is we teach kids these non-cognitive skills. >> discipline. >> if you bring this to scale like a universal program, that these type of results would still continue by 21, 22 24shgs, are or sit because it is a specialized program? >> i think that's why the head start results on are so for here. it is also -- head start which is -- you know, less intense and less expensive. i think we should go for high quality pre-scale for all. even if it gets watered down we see similar results. >> you are coming from a -- you know, portion of the ed world that's of the -- self-appointed reform camp which i hate the way

that term is used because it -- you know, suggests everyone is just a dinosaur, fighting for outmoded status quo. >> everyone else step back. >> i mean -- i guess my point is that the -- you know, the -- ed wars can be a little like israel/palestine. they are intense. largely internally in the democratic coalition but also across both parties. is this a place of agreement in -- between those two different wings of that very polarized world of ed policy whether you can -- it seems to me like will is more agreement, folks like yourself that work for chris christie and are in the certain camp, folks who are in the -- much more of the other camp. there seems to me like universal pre-k is something that's fairly consensus positions. >> i don't know if universal is a consensus position. i feel like -- >> targeted. >> time quality is a consensus position. and -- sort of high quality focus that -- the kids who benefit the most which is to say

the poorest kids is like a uniformed position. at the same time, i just want to expand on this a little bit. whether or not you are -- you are there, i think everybody has to remember that even -- if it is small and localized or universal, preschool is a -- part of a chain that -- articulating to k-12 and articulating to college at some point. i would argue it is like the other side of this. the fade-out, tail-off effects you see in k-12, they are not about pre-k. we have a serious k-12 problem in our districts we are getting around to fixing. >> i want to add, i think we have a -- serious pre-k problem. a serious problem of racial inequality and dealing with the working class and poor people. to put that on the education system, that i think it is putting too much on the edge indication system. people are disenfranchising and -- not -- mind-blowing that

people who are -- who are -- receive less services and thoses that also have a harder time going through the education system. a problem in the edge indication system. >> i do think that all of the conditions you cite argue for targeting pre-k more, not less. and they argue for -- sort of ratcheting up our folk owes reforming k-12 when these are the populations -- >> let me say this. i think -- interesting point here, right, when you talk about inequality you end up in a conversation about what the focus should be. you are saying that basically what happened is when folks like yourself say the folks that have to be in education k through 12, it should also be the school in the prison pipeline. poverty ask jobs. the question is like dash what would a full spectrum agenda for quality look sxlik one of the things encouraging by the state of the union in matching a higher minimum wage and pre-k, those are very different approaches at getting at something that looks more equal

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so what do we know now that we didn't know last week? >> we know how republican marco rubio defines working class. in the state of the union response speech, senator rubio said this. >> i still live in the same working class neighborhood i grew up. my neighbors are not millionaires. they depend on social security and they get up everyday to work to pay the bills, and they are immigrants who are stuck in the middle class. >> well, middle-class is an amorphous home, but his home with a swimming pool and currently on the market for $650,000, and we know that the median price is $369,000, and

compared to the miami region which is $264,000, and we know that it is very easy for the people at thech to the income distribution of america, lose sight of those below him. and we know that president obama's speech called for gender equality and the way he called for it specifically has an uncomfortable undertone. >> we know that the economy is stronger when our mother, wives and daughters can live free of discrimination from the workplace and the free from domestic violence. >> we know it is standard rhetoric of the president, but the authorities of the group "we the people" says that women, and wives and daughters is ostensibly supporting, defining women by their relationships to people is reductive, my soj nis

and alienating to women. we know that a speech writing staff as manifestly prolific and talented as the presidents should know how dissident this phrase is and stop using it. we know that not every country is content to look forward and not backwards for crimes of abuses of the war on terror under george bush. we knee the former military head of intelligence in italy was sentenced to ten years in prison while his deputy was sentenced to nine years of prison for kidnapping a cleric. the man had all of the charges dropped gaiagainst h him set fr and we know that taking somebody off of the street to without a trial and is something that is a violation of human rights, and so far, nobody here at home has had to answer for that. i want to ask the guests what

they know how that they did not know when the week began? >> i know about the noble work of charter schools in chicago. i was lucky enough to take a tour of a few of the schools with similar population demographics and 18% of the kids special needs there knocking it out of the park. i am sure they are doing great things in district schools in chicago, but i'm happy that the network exists and looking to expand. >> the charter schools is high quality charter schools are great, right? you know, who is not for it when they are high quality. and what do you now know? >> from my hometown, st. louis, missouri, several super fund sites where there is cold war era waste being stored and the e epa has decided to leave it there and it is contaminating

drinking water. and it should be absurd to store waste materials in an urban area. >> where? >> st. louis, missouri. >> last week i with was in birmingham, alabama, and i went to a conference for the naacp and went to the civil rights museum which i recommend to everyone, and it was a display talking about the disparities of the income and educational attainment and even prison and made me realize that we still have the inequalities of those civil rights of the past and still struggling today. >> goal di? >> for me being from st. louis, i know about the ground water and the poison there and in order to break the cycle of p r poverty, it means we have to damn the whole river and that means dealing with pre-k and early childhood education, but it also deals with what the president talked about absentee parents, and this is not just parents not divorced, but

parents not engaged in their children's lives. if you are college educated, you only have a 7% chance to be involved in your children's live liv lives. the driver for poverty is having an absentee present and also present parents, too, male, female, and they decrease the child's chance to go prison and violence and health outcomes and illicit drugs, and if you are going to damn the river, damn the whole river. >> and i would like to thank all of my guests today. thank you for getting "up" and thank you for getting up to join us at "up" and join us tomorrow at 8:00, and we will have an amazing story of a man who was separated from his family after the u.s. put him on the no-fly list. and we will talk about that tomorrow "up with chris hayes." and coming up next with melissa

harris-perry is her one-on-one the white house ambassador valerie jarrett, and talk about the poverty crisis in america. one of the president's most trusted advisers coming up next on mhp. see you tomorrow morning at 8:00. thank you for getting "up." ♪ if loving you is wrong ♪ i don't wanna be right [ record scratch ] what?! it's not bad for you. it just tastes that way. [ female announcer ] honey nut cheerios cereal -- heart-healthy, whole grain oats. you can't go wrong loving it. and you'll dump your old mop. but don't worry, he'll find someone else. ♪ who's that lady? ♪ who's that lady? ♪ sexy lady ♪ who's that lady? [ female announcer ] used mops can grow bacteria.

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